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Hi everyone, I'm so glad that you could join us and greetings from a very very cold and snowy Boston afternoon. My name is Jenny rose health brain and I am the Executive Director of library futures and on behalf of my organization library features and

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the Internet Archive. We are beyond thrilled to welcome you to from owning to streaming, the transition to digital meeting in education.

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I am sorry I'm just moving something around.

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I'm beyond thrilled to to welcome you to this webinar, and also to introduce our amazing speakers

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as a, as an organization committed to promoting equitable access to knowledge and empowering libraries to take control of their digital features, this is a this is a really important event for us, and it's one that comes very much out of our community.

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It was for suggested a few months ago and we are so excited to have it happening.

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I'm going to hand it off to our moderator, Rick calendar in just a moment. But first I just wanted to go over a couple of logistics, you can ask questions in the q amp a.

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Here are some examples of some questions that you might ask, so you can ask questions in the q&a section and upload questions that you particularly want answered, there are any questions that have not been answered at the end of the session, you can email

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us at info at library features dead net. And we'll get them to the right person. So it's about 15 minutes for questions at the end so you can ask them in the q amp a section, you can also ask them in the chat and, but it's more surely answered if you,

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if you ask them in the q amp a section.

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We also have some background reading, which will be posted in the chat as well from our speakers at POV brought to some academic articles that relate to the topic, as well as some information from our partners at spark on pushing back against confidentiality

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and non disclosure agreements. So we have some wonderful speakers and presenters with us today, and I'm going to take a couple minutes to just introduce them.

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That's library features. So first we have our moderator calendar repellent guard chair and Professor of film and digital media at UC Santa Cruz is a filmmaker archivist educator and writer is archives of 60,000 historical films was acquired by Library

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of Congress in 2002, and he continues to collect moving images and make them available on archive.org.

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So on the next slide.

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We have Kathleen dealer Aunty, who's the art director of the Arthur free time library at the Peabody Institute at the Johns Hopkins University. Her work focuses on copyright education and reference services for musicians, music, and media collections

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and open access and the arts and humanities.

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Chris Paulson, is an associate professor in the Department of History of Art, and program and Film Studies at Ohio State University. She teaches courses on film video art and new media, and is the author of here their telepresence touch an art at the

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interface, MIT Press 2017.

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And then we have Courtney.

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Courtney cook is currently the Education Manager a POV American documentary before completing her PhD in cultural studies and education in 2020. She taught pre service teachers at the University of Texas, Austin and high school English and public schools

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for nearly a decade. So I'm going to hand it over to Rick, and we have plenty of time for our speakers to talk about their own particular point of view, as well as talk about where we are, where we're going and what we can do to support equitable streaming

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and visual and auditory media in libraries and the public interest so over to you, Rick. Thank you so much.

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Well good afternoon Good morning Good evening, everybody wherever you may be for almost 19 years going back really to the 1920s educational media librarians were hunters and gatherers they located and collected physical media first films on reels that

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video tapes and video discs later DVDs and blu rays, some collections were a massive Indiana University for example held over 50,000 film titles many prints of some of them, and many collections reflected and imaginative and sometimes daring and often

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local sensibility, often media libraries collected and loan films and video works from independent makers, small distributors community producers media collections for loaned to educators to students center community members and very much often geared

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to the specific needs of a state or region.

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Today, this has changed. Today librarians are obliged to be intermediaries between corporate distributors who controls streaming rights to a wide spectrum of media for mainstream Hollywood feature films, independent, documentaries.

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No longer can a library purchase rights to a film that lasts for the life of the print, in many cases, each viewing as a billable event, often a very expensive one physical media materials if they're even still held in, in collections language on shelves

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as, especially during this pandemic and libraries have no choice other than to pay escalating subscription fees if they want to fulfill their longtime mission of serving the needs of their patrons streaming media to students library patrons community

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members is a big step forward for educational and culture. It's a good thing.

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But turning libraries into commercial age into collection agents for commercial distributors, maybe not so much of a good thing and it raises serious equity questions prohibitively high subscription fees for streaming media are forcing often under funded

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institutions to cut other services. There are local and regional funding disparities that mean that some libraries are able to offer more services than others.

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Media periodicals databases and ebooks are now all offered via subscription models and escalating prices threaten the 300 year long Public Library tradition of equal access.

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How can public libraries and educational institutions retain the model that's over the door of the Boston Public Library free to all today's panelists are going to discuss this situation, and I hope proposed means of supporting makers and viewers alike,

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without turning libraries into collection agents.

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We're hoping today to to really begin by kind of understanding where we are looking at at how the the current system is broken.

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What might be what we need to look at and how each of institution and organization approaches, these issues also very much want to talk about how to support media makers especially independence.

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At the same time that we support viewers, and then move from a sense of where we are to where we're going, what we think about what we'd like to build together what do we feel that we need.

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So I'm wondering if if each panelist could begin with sort of a brief sense of where we think we are, and what you've perceived in the course of your work, and maybe we could begin with Kathleen Diller aunty.

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Thank you, Rick and thank you, Jenny. Um, I have been working with streaming media for 14 years now let's kind of astounding to believe it's been this long.

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So I'm really excited that library futures and the Internet Archive have given us this opportunity to come together and talk about it.

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A lot of my work even though I come from a background of music librarianship happens in the scholarly communication space. And I often find myself the person in the corner saying, what about the people who aren't doing science, especially in the University

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setting so much of our work is focused on what's happening in in the hard sciences and stem what's happening with scholarly publishing, how we're managing big deals and what the impacts are there on our on traditions of publishing how information is disseminated

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and our library budgets to.

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But we've only recently even started talking about scholarly monographs in this context so when we're talking about multimedia it's been kind of out in the cold a little bit so I'm hopeful that this will be the beginning of a conversation of pulling this

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really important cultural content back into the center of what we're thinking about, in the context of all of our collections.

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So I think

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what I what I think has been a problem and a barrier to making that happen is, I think the different motivations that we have for markets for this material.

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I think we have this very strong ideal in scientific publishing that that material is being researched and published to improve society and to make things better.

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It's largely grant funded nonprofit work that's happening not exclusively.

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But that when we're talking about what's happening in the arts even for our faculty so for example at my institution at Peabody, you know, teaching is just a part of what how all of the professional musicians here are earning their income and making a

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living. So being a part of the music industry as is still a big part of their income and how they're making a living, and that's a big difference that we have when we're talking about publishing and how we're going to support these different systems,

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and how we think about access and preservation and the systems and what makes I think our media systems, a little bit more closed off sometimes.

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And I think that we have different realities I've been talking a little bit about big deals and what big deals look like for media and how they exist but they're very different in the places where there's friction in the system are different than what

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we're seeing and University Libraries with academic research and scholarship that we're trying to preserve and make available as well. So I think that the, the reality of the way that the markets work means that sometimes not only our libraries, not a

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priority as a market for media and film distributors, but they're also sometimes seen as a threat seen as a threat to their in their one to one relationships with consumers in the market and I think that that creates a different kind of friction between

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our organizations that we're trying to navigate in the space.

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When I think about my experiences I feel like music has been a little bit of a canary in the coal mine throughout the history of my career. mp3 is our smaller technology and they travel over the internets faster.

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We had pirating of Napster long before we had pirating of HBO TV shows. So I think that what's been really interesting, as I've been involved in this space is you know when I first became a librarian.

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We were in the corner saying hey we have all these releases that are iTunes only that are governed by us and we can't purchase them, they're being distributed across individual computers and devices all over the world, that they are not in any libraries,

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what do we even do about this. And we've seen this whole kind of crest and shift and change in the environment around music to create almost frictionless access to just about anything you want to listen to the world, not everything but a lot of it.

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And we, you know, iTunes is now announced its demise we won't have iTunes anymore and I found us here but a lot of major releases are now actually selling mp3.

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So we have people like Olivia Rodrigo little nods x where you can go to their website, buy the album as an mp3 download it and I cannot find a trace of A EULA anywhere.

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Some of these platforms have later you'll lose it seems like than what we're used to seeing with iTunes so I think that we're seeing some shifts there.

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this content that these rights holders recognize, but they're also more focused on the investment in streaming access which is more ubiquitous and I think in many ways more convenient and more used in many of our communities, for all those reasons which

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And the way we haven't been able to do since about 2004.

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So I think that that's actually really, really exciting.

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Turn of Events and I'm curious to see how that's going to change on the film side which I think has always been a little bit different. And historically, a lot less accessible in general, I mean, I remember my first video store and if you wanted to go

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in and buy a VHS that was like $150 which for most people in the consumer market was not really accessible right.

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So I think that we're seeing technology maturing in a way for libraries and institutions that we can be in these spaces, a little bit differently than we have before.

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So I think we have more opportunities and I think that we have more responsibility to be thinking about this content and what our role is in these marketplaces, in which voices are amplified which content is being curated and how we're collecting and

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doing all these things and a space where, you know, many people in our community have Netflix so maybe there's we've been focused on access for so long.

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I think that there's now opportunities for us to think about how access plays into our larger role as cultural institutions. So I'm really excited for this conversation today and I'm very excited to share the space with my fellow panelists because I think

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that that we're going to have some really wonderful contributions and insights from both and educators perspective and the film and content distributor side so that we can think holistically about how we can work together to move things forward.

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Um, thanks so much Kathleen for introducing a breeze of optimism and possibility into the conversation and also for mentioning that that moving images possibly because of you know their connection with Hollywood in some ways tend to often be treated a

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little bit differently than some other media forms I'm just flagging these as issues to discuss in a moment but I'd like to, to toss to Professor Chris Paulson, from Ohio State to talk a little bit about her perspectives.

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Hi, so I'm going to be talking with someone from the position of an educator and someone who's thinking about students, particularly in the kind of content we can give to them.

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And so, I am seeking from this position I want to acknowledge have a lot of privilege as someone who teaches at a large public research university with a huge amount of resources and a really incredible library staff and larger administrative staff who

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has helped us navigate these kind of new issues and problems. But I also wanted to talk about, you know what it's like to teach within these contacts and some of the ways in which the move toward streaming media has put a strain on students and teachers

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around issues of equity and inclusion.

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And these are all factors and trends that existed before the pandemic but which been have been emphasized. I think by our massive and rapid shift toward online teaching over the last two years, and only teaching is produced particular issues for students

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and teachers of cinema, ones that aren't always apparent I think to some of our colleagues even in very closely adjacent fields. So just thinking about content off the bat I've been teaching introductory film studies courses at Ohio State for about 12

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years and over this period we've moved, gradually from showing classes in film it on film.

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When I was a student but in class showing films, and to streaming them online as homework and earlier when we started streaming this had happened through secure Media Library sites where students had special access where you that you had to renew bi weekly

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and two factor authentication to get into the sites, and the system over time and with some pressure has given way to subscription based streaming services like canopy and Swank, and these are really incredible resources however they're not terribly inclusive,

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when it comes to work by directors of color and films from the developing world, in particular, for example, the Criterion Collection which is considered the gold standard of film collections to teach from and holds hundreds and hundreds of titles comes

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as part of canopy which my university subscribes to but it has only a very small selection of films from let's say South and Central America, or from Africa, I looked this morning and I think there's only three African films.

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They're all from Senegal, you know, so if you're teaching.

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Looking to teach kind of global media course, there there can be some real severe limitations and even if you're looking at American film, there was a 2020 article in The New York Times that went into this, showing how criterion only had four directors

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and its collection that were African American and this is you know, more than 1000 films.

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And so, while this is an incredible resource to teach from it's very limiting when it comes to non Western and diverse directors. So even in films that do come from outside of Europe in the United States, they're primarily films that have been embraced

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by Western audiences. So, if you are looking to teach a class that represents what's important to local communities and audiences that come from those national regions that you're talking about it, it can it can be really kind of hand, you can get hamstrung

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trying to do this, and I know that this is something that a lot of my colleagues, teach on non Western traditions, you know, encounter all the time.

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And so when I've taught a film that is unavailable to teach through any of these subscription services I'm sometimes told to just substitute another film, and I understand why this is a very logical and fairly simple solution.

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If I want to teach a Brazilian film, then I should just use the one that we have available and that's a simple substitution. But despite my own kind of personal attachments and interests to particular films.

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There's programmatic reasons why this just doesn't work that I sometimes find it's very hard to communicate to the people who are asking us to make these adjustments.

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For example, like a lot of people who teach introductory film courses I teach one that attempts to be a broad strokes introduction to the history of cinema its technical aesthetic social development that touches on it many parts of the globe, as possible

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in 15 weeks and this is very challenging thing to do so every film plays multiple roles in in supporting that story, and can easily be switched out, for example, Charles Burnett killer sheet which is a film that I love and I love teaching allows me to

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to talk about black American traditions and filmmaking, but also the rise of film schools and independent filmmaking outside of Hollywood as well as the global scope of Neo realism.

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As a tradition, and it allows me importantly discuss how copyright affects distribution and access in cinema since this film famously languish in obscurity for about 30 years after initial kind of overwhelming Critical reception because of its complicated

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music licensing rights and how that's tied into dietetic sound. So every film is doing so many things in a syllabus that taking one out can kind of collapse, some of that structure or can easily be substituted with something else.

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And I want to talk to about student access and equity and inclusion issues that arise in this way, many films, particularly Hollywood and American films that aren't available through these libraries because Christian services are available on iTunes or

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Netflix, and it's become really common place to assume that all of our students have access to these kinds of subscriptions, and that anything that's on prime or, or Netflix we can assign, and essentially no additional cost to student, or that if they

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do have to rent something from iTunes, the rental costs are low two or $3 so that's not something to factor in for students.

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But of course if you teach them, you know that you don't just watch a film once you rewatch it over and over again and especially when you have to write papers later and so you're not actually asking them to just rent something once but perhaps to purchase

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those films and so if you're teaching a class on say Alfred Hitchcock whose films aren't very available in some of those streaming services.

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And you're signing 10 or more films over the course of a semester that might add up to be more than $100 for students. And I, I've learned that you can't assume that students have access to credit cards or to the financial resources to pay in those ways.

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And so it makes Film Studies.

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You know cumbersome discipline, you know that can only be for people that are financially secure. It's also the case that hard to find films like Charles Burnett killer of sheep which for many years was only streaming through its distributor.

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Put in some having students go directly to distributor to set up a new account for renting and enter a credit card, put in some extra hurdles that made that the film that students who are most likely to skip.

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And so we're having kind of marginalized films from minority directors being the ones that students didn't see where they all watch Citizen Kane, because it was so easily available to them.

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And so, we're seeing that, you know, these assumptions around students financial access to these sites, I think can have big effects on what they actually see and what we can teach them.

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The last piece I want to add i think is the least important piece, but it's one that's been keenly felt by educators, especially in this online teaching moment in the pandemic.

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We all know that the film's available on library subscription services and through Netflix and Amazon and things like that, in particular, aren't stable and they can disappear without much notice.

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So if you're relying on one of these services you can find yourself in a difficult position of scrambling to produce new lectures or contents on on very short notice.

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And we've all spent the last few years, investing so much of our time and labor and creation of online classes that the sudden disappearance of the film.

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In other weeks, you know, there can be a chain effect of removing a piece of one of the year materials. And so I think for most of us, the last few years have been quite draining as educators as for everyone.

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And to have the courses that we've produced become so precarious this really unnerving, especially as often these classes are not overseen by the professors that makes them but are handed off to graduate student workers or two instructors or other contingent

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forms of employment who aren't paid or prepared necessarily to deal with these kind of catastrophic losses of content. And so I think there's, you know, a whole variety of issues were teaching cinema has become something where we really have to think

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about how these online services and in some cases their prosperity are affecting you know what our students can do, and how we support them. So, I'll hand that off.

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Now, Um, thanks so much and thanks for for grounding the perspective of students. I think that sometimes commercial vendors and sometimes also high level managers tend to view users of the services in very abstract terms and and your your your concrete

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description of what students face I think is really really important to keep in mind.

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I'd like now to ask Dr. Courtney cook from POV American documentary to free your thoughts.

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Yes, thank you, Rick on mute. Okay. Hi, everyone. Thank you, Rick.

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I want to echo, something that Chris said which is like when I think about where are we now we're, we're two years into an ongoing global pandemic where educators are really working very hard and doubling down to try to serve their students as best they

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can.

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And importantly, I think, when access is a major determining factor of curriculum then it begs a lot of questions for education and the purpose of education.

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I enter this conversation from a different angle. I was a public high school teacher for a long time and so I do think about curriculum development I think about designing courses, delivering the material to my students, and finishing my PhD, it was in

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cultural studies and education so I was studying the social political historical context of new liberal universities and so yes we're two years into an ongoing global pandemic but we're still working in neoliberal institutions that determine access and

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very real ways and the values of the market, or the logic of schooling. And so I think when we bring these perspectives also into considering teaching and providing our students with with quality curriculum, a syllabus that tells a story that bronze understanding

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that deepens understanding that really transforms the kind of transformative education we aspire towards in classrooms, now we're trying to do it digitally.

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There are a lot of questions about access that are new. Now that we have to ask them that we're confronted with.

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I'm working currently at an American documentary POV which is at the intersection of Public Media Independent we support independent documentary filmmakers.

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And, you know, before coded and working for public media is a part of my politics working at public schools as a part of my politics and I think as we move through this pandemic as we move deeper into, like, however Neo liberal values are going to structure,

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literally every aspect of our life.

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There has to be a deep commitment to Publix, and to somehow resuscitating whatever public's mean and to me that does mean free access, access period, particularly when it comes to education, we do not see this model being played out, particularly in higher

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education, but working with PBS, working with POV. It is a bright spot of, of trying to support educators I work with educators I work with public librarians activists scholars, and in support of the independent documentary filmmakers to bring these films

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into classrooms across the country for free, to bring resources to support teachers in dialogues around the social documentaries and these critical issues for free.

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It's a hard model, it's a small organization it's public media, and a neoliberal world, so you know it's it's a lot of work as we're probably going to talk about today, but I think it's really helped shape, some of my thoughts around what is actually

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possible. And what could be a sustainable model. And for me the key kind of always comes back to back to the space of Publix and shared Publix and and keeping us alive.

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Thank you for that emphasis on public space, public values in a, in a period where everything seems to be increasingly enclosed.

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Again, that's a strain that I hope can percolate throughout our thinking for the rest of this event.

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It seems as if people are talking on the one hand, about individual solutions that sometimes are hacks sometimes are ingenious ways of working locally or, you know, at their institution or with students, and then there's also sort of systemic solutions

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there's a big gap between there.

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in a sense, how can we make that educational mission more robust How can we guarantee that in a media driven age that media is available to students and community members who needed.

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Does anybody want to sort of walk the cat back a little bit.

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whereas my question painfully abstract.

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It may very well be. Let me see I can now see all of you here. Um, I guess, I guess another way of thinking about this is that the current system, which is is licensing based and based on billable events claims to be more clients to compensate makers,

00:29:46.000 --> 00:30:04.000
for the work that they do. And I think all of us want to make sure that independent media especially has a means of existence that it can survive that makers can survive, and I would be very interested in all of your thoughts on what that how we might

00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:14.000
better strike that balance, rather than sending big checks to corporations that sit in the middle.

00:30:14.000 --> 00:30:23.000
And please feel free to, to to chime in. Panelists.

00:30:23.000 --> 00:30:37.000
I think that there's a couple of issues that play the spec with your first question what I thought initially was just, especially with film in particular, the complexity of the licensing landscape.

00:30:37.000 --> 00:30:54.000
On the filmmaking side, which gets more complex, the bigger the institutions and organizations involved has made it traditionally really hard for us, as we've transitioned into a digital space to work with rights holders in many cases we don't know who

00:30:54.000 --> 00:31:08.000
they are you looking at the pace magazine article about the Netflix DVDs and saying how we're not seeing any depth coming up of little known films or films that you know maybe have been neglected or content that's been marginalized.

00:31:08.000 --> 00:31:22.000
Oftentimes, that comes back to a copyright question there's not a rights holder available anymore for Amazon Prime to get in touch with to say we want to put this in our space, or the rights holder who's controlling distribution right now only has this

00:31:22.000 --> 00:31:32.000
for a limited amount of time and only certain jurisdictions, and maybe they, they can license this film to Europe but not to the United States and it's a film that was made in South Africa.

00:31:32.000 --> 00:31:41.000
So I think those complications make things really hard when we're talking about a licensing based system. And I think that it's a real.

00:31:41.000 --> 00:31:57.000
It really spotlights the need for a pathway to digital sale of digital content for organizations whose mission is not just for access today, but to think about access 100 years from now 150 years from now, Those of us working with music remember the Great

00:31:57.000 --> 00:32:04.000
Warner warehouse burned down of 2008 were like 40,000 master sound recordings are gone forever.

00:32:04.000 --> 00:32:21.000
So I think that there's, there's a real need for us to think about what's, what's the long term role that we can, that we can come in and provide service for these organizations in some ways that might be able to work alongside other modes of access that

00:32:21.000 --> 00:32:26.000
they feel are a priority for them right now.

00:32:26.000 --> 00:32:35.000
As by the way we've seen and other media were libraries can purchase perpetual access to, let's say, a cereals database.

00:32:35.000 --> 00:32:41.000
I was thinking about this in relationship to the other things I teach which I teach you know an introduction to cinema.

00:32:41.000 --> 00:32:55.000
Lots of things that my university hands handles the rights for and then I teach video art, which falls really far on the other side of the spectrum which is, you know, mostly all independent filmmakers and I think from the perspective, or video makers,

00:32:55.000 --> 00:33:10.000
from the perspective of someone who's an educator, it's not even clear to me how I would go about kind of going through the process of getting rights for all those things I have some things in my own personal collection that I showed during class that

00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:23.000
I put up on the screen. And then other things I show assigned through repositories like boo boo which is very high in gray area in terms of its legality but because it up, and you know, a lot of that stuff comes from distributors like AI and video data

00:33:23.000 --> 00:33:38.000
And you know, a lot of that stuff comes from distributors like AI and video data bank that's up on on EU and things come down and off all the time and I've certainly had my library buy things from those distributors, but then I'm not allowed to put those

00:33:38.000 --> 00:33:54.000
in any kind of streaming access so I have a DVD or I have a VHS, in some cases, that it seems only my only option is just shove it in the classroom and so while I'm sure there are solutions for some of this I think from the position of an educator who's

00:33:54.000 --> 00:34:09.000
looking to show you know dozens and dozens of things in a semester I think it can be kind of baffling, think of how I would go about this kind of in a new era where I'm not showing things in the classroom in ways that seemed to be kind of very comfortably

00:34:09.000 --> 00:34:25.000
situated within Fair Use arrangement, and again this move to online teaching has, especially when it happened very rapidly. You know cause, and then becomes calcified once you do it once they're like hey why don't you teach that online again have become,

00:34:25.000 --> 00:34:40.000
you know, kind of tricky areas for people who aren't like myself really well versed in copyright law or in library practices so I think a lot of times it falls, it seems to fall in the lap of a of someone who doesn't know much about what they're doing

00:34:40.000 --> 00:34:55.000
to to navigate these things and, and the university I think often sees it as we're the liable party, if we do something that isn't, you know, to code.

00:34:55.000 --> 00:35:09.000
think something else that comes up for me too if we think of like the ecosystem or the or the players in this in this space. Chris you mentioned, independent artists, you know, working with the we work with independent artists and in this larger field,

00:35:09.000 --> 00:35:26.000
and this is also a question of access who gets who gets to have their films brought into the space of documentary filmmaking on public media and I think when the larger streaming platforms are the corporate streaming platforms, then it's important again

00:35:26.000 --> 00:35:37.000
to like have a space to support independent artists, but that makes me have some kind of nuanced questions around independent artists independent filmmakers also need to get paid.

00:35:37.000 --> 00:35:50.000
I think it's just a complexity as the questions were asking right like I'm around like free access but also on my end working in support of these filmmakers and these film teams, very much wanting them to get paid for this incredible work they're doing

00:35:50.000 --> 00:36:05.000
and understanding that that you know PBS isn't a very large streaming place like Netflix or HBO we don't have, you know, the money that other places would and so I think it is like a political choice to for these artists and even makers to come on board

00:36:05.000 --> 00:36:11.000
like. For many of us, it's a political choice to work in public spaces and public universities.

00:36:11.000 --> 00:36:28.000
And I guess I just offer that as a way to bring all the players into the space, but to think dynamically about the questions around access that we're asking, and equity of course.

00:36:28.000 --> 00:36:30.000
Yeah, please.

00:36:30.000 --> 00:36:45.000
I was just going to mention, especially when we're thinking about this more independent content. I think that there's a lot of opportunities for us as institutions to be looking at some of the success and some of the new models that are coming out around

00:36:45.000 --> 00:36:50.000
open education materials and the things that we're seeing around it open access.

00:36:50.000 --> 00:37:03.000
I think that there are ways for us to work with independent artists, independent filmmakers independent creators to think about different ways of compensation.

00:37:03.000 --> 00:37:13.000
Besides being compensated for a surrogate of your item after it's made. And I think that there are some ways that organizationally we can we can look at what that might be.

00:37:13.000 --> 00:37:28.000
I saw some questions to in the chat about hosting and I think that we have, as, as universities and libraries more options for hosting different kinds of media than we ever have before in ways that I think, feel comfortable to content creators right so

00:37:28.000 --> 00:37:37.000
we now have a system here at my institution where I can make things only available for streaming not downloading and only two authorized users in my organization.

00:37:37.000 --> 00:37:50.000
This is something I've had for the last two years for the first time in my career, but I think that these platforms are becoming more accessible to us as organizations that give us more opportunities to think about how we might want to make local investments

00:37:50.000 --> 00:38:00.000
on the independent side of things, as far as thinking about how we can impact those markets and that economy to think about, elevating those voices and making that content available.

00:38:00.000 --> 00:38:14.000
And then, you know, able to be distributed or purchased or owned at other institutions, beyond our local communities and the local interests of, you know, like Chris's class, and the kinds of films that she might want to work with you know investments

00:38:14.000 --> 00:38:25.000
that Ohio State can make their could then make that content more broadly available to other universities in the United States, just like some of the projects I'm trying to work on here at Peabody with music.

00:38:25.000 --> 00:38:32.000
We're hoping will then be things that could be collected by other organizations that might have a focus on that collection as well.

00:38:32.000 --> 00:38:50.000
Um what what Kathleen is just sad and what Courtney said a moment ago, I think, sort of pushed us now into the territory of thinking about solutions, What can we do and what Kathleen just mentioned, especially makes the point that sort of structural solutions

00:38:50.000 --> 00:39:06.000
that, that, that, think about the so called market differently that think about the distribution of culture and knowledge and information a little bit differently and that are open to all might make sense to discuss, I mean right now if you're an individual

00:39:06.000 --> 00:39:25.000
educator and individual librarian or even an individual student researcher. It's very hard to understand what your options are. It's very hard to understand what the law is, and I would love to, to hear all of your thoughts about ways we might try to

00:39:25.000 --> 00:39:36.000
set up different sorts of systems and really look deeply into the structure of access to media.

00:39:36.000 --> 00:39:39.000
Something I'm thinking about and I don't want to.

00:39:39.000 --> 00:39:44.000
Suppose that I have an answer to these questions, of course, I'm.

00:39:44.000 --> 00:39:55.000
Since coming into this job this is the first time I've ever worked at a nonprofit, this is the first time I've ever worked with public media and I work also with public media stations which are local to communities across the country.

00:39:55.000 --> 00:40:00.000
And I think when I was teaching Had I known.

00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:18.000
Maybe I thought like oh PBS cute, but POV is not cute, it was like critical social documentaries that really provide a foundation for talking about important issues within classrooms within communities, and it's based around kind of like Kathleen was

00:40:18.000 --> 00:40:31.000
saying like localized organizational model, when you have your local PBS station that is making certain content available, not only to schools but to communities.

00:40:31.000 --> 00:40:42.000
It's not an answer. It's just a question I've been thinking about a lot since coming into this job and like looking at the map of the United States and kind of seeing the webs of these different stations and getting to know people who are just people

00:40:42.000 --> 00:40:52.000
working in Chattanooga, Tennessee, with the local teachers at the public schools or the universities, there is a very hyper local model I just don't know what place.

00:40:52.000 --> 00:41:05.000
When we think again of Publix or public media. What position it holds in our imagination in these conversations about like radically reimagining access, because it's almost an older model.

00:41:05.000 --> 00:41:07.000
but it's still here still living.

00:41:07.000 --> 00:41:19.000
So that's what I would offer is. I just have more questions about that to keep thinking on what Kathleen was mentioning about the secure library that you know students could access.

00:41:19.000 --> 00:41:33.000
I mean that's what we've had here for a long time and it's what's constantly being stunted for us like this, where we put individual copies on reserve that would be digitized and then you would enable students registered for a particular class to go and

00:41:33.000 --> 00:41:39.000
see it, but this I think is often seen as a bit risky.

00:41:39.000 --> 00:41:57.000
Legally for the university to do and so the move toward these expensive subscription services have seemed like the, the prudent and and responsible or conservative way to go about things just because the university is of course risk averse with showing

00:41:57.000 --> 00:42:16.000
films that they don't that are available elsewhere, or without, you know, following other forms of payments and clearance. And so, for I think for a long time, everyone was very satisfied with that system but it's exactly the one that, that is going away

00:42:16.000 --> 00:42:26.000
at least, least here in this mood to these new models of course it couldn't be shared outside of even a particular class, let alone a whole university or beyond.

00:42:26.000 --> 00:42:38.000
But as Courtney was pointing out and, and that I had mentioned to that, that access determines curriculum and what you can teach and then that determines what people think is important and that determines what becomes canonical students or what's even

00:42:38.000 --> 00:42:47.000
valuable and, and, by having certain films or certain kinds of content not included in one way or another eventually confirm racism.

00:42:47.000 --> 00:43:00.000
From relevance, even if it's exactly what you want to be teaching and I think that that's something that, that we face all the time in our classrooms is that we want to teach certain things and maybe even think it's the most important thing to teach but

00:43:00.000 --> 00:43:02.000
it's just not on the table.

00:43:02.000 --> 00:43:09.000
In terms of its availability.

00:43:09.000 --> 00:43:24.000
I remember in the 90s, there was a, an anxiety that many historical documentaries, were not available for educational use and it was because filmmakers couldn't afford to clear educational rights when they used archival footage to just clear grades for

00:43:24.000 --> 00:43:41.000
television broadcast or theatrical and the Rockefeller Foundation stepped in with national video resources to subsidize the cost of obtaining these rights and suddenly a whole lot of work became available in the educational domain and the same way that

00:43:41.000 --> 00:43:51.000
Ford bailed out eyes on the prize, with a problem over music right so that that important series on the civil rights movement was available to people.

00:43:51.000 --> 00:44:10.000
I think there are options to to fund this sort of thing in a systematic way that we have to know what we asked for what we need, and this is sometimes been a problem in the educational in the library spaces people getting together to, to be able to advocate

00:44:10.000 --> 00:44:32.000
for their shared needs and I'm wondering what are some umbrellas around which institutions could gather together with filmmakers and declare a mutual interests and begin to make something happen.

00:44:32.000 --> 00:44:48.000
Is this an imponderable I mean it Courtney What do you hear from makers about what they need, what are their interests, how can we support, making important, inclusive broad ranging difficult work available.

00:44:48.000 --> 00:44:49.000
More universally.

00:44:49.000 --> 00:45:01.000
Yeah, I mean I what, like I said, like I mentioned earlier, I think filmmakers who choose to come with POV are on public media with Independent Lens its values question.

00:45:01.000 --> 00:45:18.000
These filmmakers generally want their films accessible and available without the barriers, you know, POV has been around since I think 1988, which means that I could have been a young country girl and South Georgia and turned on my bunny ears TV and seen

00:45:18.000 --> 00:45:34.000
a film that changed my world that introduced me to people that I would have never met before living in such a rural place. And I think that the filmmakers who who choose to come and to come with public media, do it again for this kind of political alignment

00:45:34.000 --> 00:45:52.000
of the public's and in one way I think that we can support these filmmakers is by being in solidarity along the political lines of the public of saying like, yes, this is, this is a valuable space worthy of supporting and I don't really believe in like

00:45:52.000 --> 00:46:12.000
individualized solutions right but you know thanks to viewers like you. I have a job so you know I think like really considering the role of the very few Publix that we have public libraries public schools, public media public parks, the last best sight

00:46:12.000 --> 00:46:28.000
of democracy that we have here, you know, and I don't have any advice, other than to like to be in solidarity you know with with those Publix when possible.

00:46:28.000 --> 00:46:33.000
I guess that's not advice.

00:46:33.000 --> 00:46:52.000
Courtney Do you see I'm going to put you on the spot again I guess I'm a way for your organization to collaborate with universities and public libraries and foundations as consumers to create a system where the content that's coming to your distribution

00:46:52.000 --> 00:47:07.000
channels then can be shared more broadly through our organizations, so that we are thinking about permanent so we are thinking about things that aren't going to disappear and I know even with public media that licensing questions sometimes crops up where

00:47:07.000 --> 00:47:24.000
we can't offer this therapy anymore that licenses expired we couldn't renew it we couldn't. I mean, are there. Are there ways that you see forward that could bolster investment from institutions like ours that might help shift the realities of how that

00:47:24.000 --> 00:47:27.000
licensing pieces working right now.

00:47:27.000 --> 00:47:35.000
Like, how can we make work together to start making some of this happen. Well, I cannot answer these questions because I'm not the licensing person I am.

00:47:35.000 --> 00:47:42.000
You know I work with like the social impact, technically and impact producer and working with educators, and it is.

00:47:42.000 --> 00:47:53.000
It's like the monster model of like, strong, powerful, very rich streaming organizations and universities and like the public nonprofit where it's very small we are a small organization.

00:47:53.000 --> 00:48:08.000
And so I work one to one with librarians I work one to one with educators. If a professor wants to screen, an old POV film. They'll email and say like, Hey, I can't find this in the community network, and then we will literally sometimes put them in touch

00:48:08.000 --> 00:48:28.000
with the filmmaker. I mean, it feels like 1988 and some, some ways. However, it also feels right like the, like, a promising way forward. And I can't answer questions about like investment or licensing because again, you know, we're working with independent

00:48:28.000 --> 00:48:41.000
artists that we also want to support their success as filmmakers and diversifying the field, the field of documentary filmmaking, so I can't really answer that question.

00:48:41.000 --> 00:48:48.000
I don't think I can answer, but I can encourage all of you to like

00:48:48.000 --> 00:48:54.000
not not not reach out to me because I think there are many people in this webinar.

00:48:54.000 --> 00:49:03.000
But yet to utilize POV to you utilize PBS resources eyes on the prize I know as a serious literally changed my entire life watching it in college.

00:49:03.000 --> 00:49:14.000
It changed my entire career trajectory, and I think that these are important social, cultural and historical resources that we continue to make available and bring into our classrooms.

00:49:14.000 --> 00:49:28.000
There is some piece about remembering that there are people on the other side like to say like POV is a small organization, you know, a national arts organization but small is to also remember that like within the ecosystems that we are trying to sustain

00:49:28.000 --> 00:49:30.000
and keep alive.

00:49:30.000 --> 00:49:43.000
There are smaller sub sections and ways I do, I mean we do collaborate with partner organization and institutions, we have screenings at universities we have these kind of more traditional partnerships, often, and filmmakers come in and speak to students

00:49:43.000 --> 00:50:00.000
I actually at Ohio University we had one. Recently, Ohio State University, something that happened early in the pandemic that was, I think, really almost career shifting for me was that so many artists, not necessarily people working in film and documentary

00:50:00.000 --> 00:50:16.000
environments with people working in gallery scenarios made their work freely available through their websites, which hadn't happened before video artists in particular, and it totally changed the way I could teach since again access is, is, is all about,

00:50:16.000 --> 00:50:26.000
you know, whether you can include something so artists who have always wanted to teach, I suddenly was able to, but these were just like gifts of grand generosity.

00:50:26.000 --> 00:50:42.000
From from individual artists were no compensation came in I would love to know like if there are solutions of how, how to equitably compensate people for those those tremendous gifts and you know in some ways there's, there's no possible way of doing

00:50:42.000 --> 00:50:56.000
so, but something that also happened simultaneously I think after artist started doing this is that certain institutions started making their collections, more available and many for just the limited limited moment in the pandemic like oh all museums

00:50:56.000 --> 00:51:11.000
are closed. So here we'll, we'll give you access to some of our collections so you can engage with with art at home but again this was really transformative not just for teaching but I know for some of my students for research, rather than traveling to

00:51:11.000 --> 00:51:24.000
Berlin to see a series of video works in a collection they were able to watch it at home and while going to Berlin is really fun. They also saved a huge amount of money and we're able to repeatedly watch something while writing their dissertation chapter

00:51:24.000 --> 00:51:38.000
and, and often there's this this thought that digital media and electronic media and video and film, are easily accessible, especially in the arts and, and they're not they're very hard, hard to see, and hard to to encounter.

00:51:38.000 --> 00:51:47.000
And they often required kind of traveling across the world sometimes to see something just to, you know, in a few runs in a private screening room in the back of a gallery.

00:51:47.000 --> 00:51:51.000
And so, There have been some really positive, I think gestures.

00:51:51.000 --> 00:52:12.000
By institutions, making work available during the pandemic but again it seems like a limited limited time offer for, for a lot of them not all but but but some, but again I, as an A teacher who's constantly changing what she, she teaches each semester.

00:52:12.000 --> 00:52:23.000
It's very hard to understand how to, you know, figure out ways to compensate individual artists that aren't part of these larger kind of distribution organizations.

00:52:23.000 --> 00:52:35.000
And I think that that's something that we could be working together with artists and institutions on right now, I mean we could be looking at things like what does a model license look like for one of these artists Chris is talking about to sell their

00:52:35.000 --> 00:52:50.000
content to an organization and what kinds of constraints might they want to put into that contract, so that you know their work is being accessible to the students who need it, but there's, there's a set of fair constraints around how an organization

00:52:50.000 --> 00:53:04.000
can use that, so that that artists can still continue to monetize that work and whatever other ways are available to them. And I think that that's a role that our institutions can really play so that you know a distributor can go to POV and say we want

00:53:04.000 --> 00:53:14.000
to have the EOB name over it, but you know maybe I also want to make this available for purchase myself as an independent filmmaker for other kinds of cultural institutions that might want to put it in their collections.

00:53:14.000 --> 00:53:26.000
And that's something that they think is really important. I do think that on the commercial side when we're talking about I want to teach Disney films and I'm working with an online class around this right now that the advocacy that our organizations

00:53:26.000 --> 00:53:31.000
and that we as individuals can do around digital first sale is really critical for that.

00:53:31.000 --> 00:53:44.000
Because, you know, as Chris was saying the reality is is when you start talking about that $5 app Disney plus subscription and plus that $10 Netflix subscription plus you have to have it for the whole semester because students do need to rewatch these

00:53:44.000 --> 00:53:58.000
things and you know what, now you've got what's $150 worth of digital subscriptions the student has to participate in just to access their course content, which at the end of the semester is completely gone to them when those subscriptions expire.

00:53:58.000 --> 00:54:07.000
So I think that we need to continue to think about what our bigger picture advocacy is for potential legislative solutions that will help address that.

00:54:07.000 --> 00:54:12.000
Teresa or made a similar point in chat that there are a lot of.

00:54:12.000 --> 00:54:28.000
There are a lot of commercially based creative works that are important to teach I think of parents Nance random acts of flyness which is an incredible example of black excellence and experimental cross mainstream television, making which is, I don't

00:54:28.000 --> 00:54:36.000
even know if it's available on HBO online you know it was an HBO series that that lasted a year and was dropped.

00:54:36.000 --> 00:54:55.000
But imagine you know, some, being able to suggest licensing or usage schemes to makers in a setup simple alternatives that were collectively understood and and held a shared values, think would be very interesting.

00:54:55.000 --> 00:54:56.000
How do we.

00:54:56.000 --> 00:55:15.000
It seems like this is is is is a conversation that needs to be broad and needs to be deep and needs to happen soon. How can we move in that direction, what would what would our thoughtful panelists suggest about taking this to another, taking this to

00:55:15.000 --> 00:55:19.000
a higher level.

00:55:19.000 --> 00:55:33.000
One thing I would suggest from the top is that one voice that is missing in this conversation is the voice of students that we're talking about. And I think that, you know, that's an incredibly important voice when we are talking about access for this

00:55:33.000 --> 00:55:49.000
particular community of people in education I think that any future conversations around, problem solving, before bringing institutions into it like again this is like my, my political orientation would be to bring students who also number definitely

00:55:49.000 --> 00:56:02.000
definitely deeply invested in their own access and their, their desire to be able to learn.

00:56:02.000 --> 00:56:16.000
It'd be really interested in. Longer term community conversations towards making some progress on some of these goals I think especially the licensing piece seems really achievable to me, and I know that many organizations have their own licenses going

00:56:16.000 --> 00:56:29.000
around right now with individual filmmakers and musicians and composers, but I think if we could have some models that we could get endorsed through, you know, like clear already has their model license for journal subscriptions.

00:56:29.000 --> 00:56:42.000
There are other library organizations that could work together with. I think some of these creators organizations, much like the best practices documents that you know came up out of work with ca and now CA is moved a lot of that into their workflow with

00:56:42.000 --> 00:56:56.000
their own publications. So if we can work together with organizations that creators are part of and come up with some things that we feel are going to meet their needs from a financial and market perspective and our needs from an educational mission perspective,

00:56:56.000 --> 00:57:05.000
I think that that would be really interesting and I'd be really interested in anybody who might want to join those conversations.

00:57:05.000 --> 00:57:22.000
I have had increasingly positive I think interactions with upper administration around these issues in recent years, especially as it's become clear that diversity and inclusion issues are attached to this that it's not just the arts wanting a ridiculous

00:57:22.000 --> 00:57:38.000
share of funding, pay for films and things like that. Whereas, Kathleen was pointing at you know often these requests aren't seen as valuable or productive in comparison to stem requests for library resources and things like that but but realizing that

00:57:38.000 --> 00:57:54.000
this has a huge impact on the way that we're able to educate our students as citizens and citizens in a, in a diverse world with complex issues that they need to encounter I think that I've been increasingly encouraged by how administrators and deans

00:57:54.000 --> 00:58:11.000
and people in the upper ranks are able to kind of focus on, on these as real issues and not just kind of preference of what what certain faculty members want to teach and, and I think that seeing that as the benefit to the students just individually but

00:58:11.000 --> 00:58:31.000
also to the larger campus community is something that, you know, I've been particularly encouraged around, and I wish I had more solutions for how to get to kinds of work that are hard to access or that are from other countries where licensing is not

00:58:31.000 --> 00:58:45.000
as easy to get. Because it seems like the showing of personal copies of it, which was the solution we all use previously is moving further and further off the table.

00:58:45.000 --> 00:59:03.000
Something I thought that was a very exciting development. A few months ago was a black curator built a virtual archive of black cinema online where they pointed to works there were available sometimes for free often through commercial services but pulled

00:59:03.000 --> 00:59:21.000
information together in a really really important example of individual curation and made work more accessible daylight at work that people might know where to find and if there are means to develop a license suitable or free repository, we can expect

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that there will be a lot more we can share so by, we can share playlists we can share retrospectives this already is happening to some degree but but there would be so much more.

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I think there is a link to it from from Mike Miss Sean, and the chat.

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So, we are approaching.

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I think a good time for Q amp a.

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How are we going to do this Jenny. So, um, I have been taking notes on many of the questions that have come up and thank you so much for a really thoughtful and invigorating discussion in the chat as well.

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And I actually if it's okay, Rick.

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I'm going to throw it back to you for a second, as our moderator and ask you, you know, from a filmmakers perspective in particular, and also someone who's an arc archivist and an academic who's worked with libraries and work with these Publix that Courtney

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in many ways was talking about throughout your career, you know some of the questions that came up were around questions of hosting for example like how can I, how can a library host these materials, when already resource strapped when peer institutions

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are moving towards streaming when maybe the kinds of resources for the kind of ownership we're talking about might not be as readily available. I'm wondering you know as a filmmaker who you know works in a variety of media and works with a variety of

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libraries, how have you navigated this question of ownership and of compensation and of frankly fairness, within your own work. And then I'm going to also ask Kathleen if you could give a little bit of a corollary about the kind of work that you're doing

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at Johns Hopkins is a library to uplift new composers and to work with different kinds of of music both is libraries publisher as well as library as a provider of access.

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I made my first film in 2004, and I instantly, put it online as you know i disclose I'm a board member of Internet Archive and I support as much as possible.

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universal access to media, and I worked with material that was in public domain.

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And shortly after that I ran into a programmer for a major film festival at a party and this programmer screamed at me and said, Why did you put your film online.

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I wanted to program it and now I can't.

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And it really deep hostility. And in this understanding this was 2004, but at the same time the film got into Rotterdam and it got into many other key film festivals and I was convinced that you could actually have ones cake and eat it too.

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This was an option for me, it was not an option for many many filmmakers who were indebted to investors who have expensive, you know, step ups if they need to purchase rights for online dissemination.

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I just think we need to make an easier path I don't think there's a path that should be as simple as makers checking off boxes and saying, you know, I'm authorized to for this, I can authorize this film to be to be made available here here here and here.

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I need help, raising funds to be able to do it here here here and here. And if there's a way to do it, where we're not creating a situation where people will just check the minimum and let the minimum standard be the maximum standard but if we can encourage

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people to be as expansive as possible about distribution. After a theatrical window after a festival window. Maybe after a contractual TV window.

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If this is an option for every filmmaker, just as natural as filling out a copyright form might be done I think we're getting somewhere.

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And we can have some really interesting conversations I think about what those boxes might be, but make it really easy Creative Commons tried to do that, where you check boxes to, to figure out what license you want if you, if you go for Creative Commons

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but honestly I think that's a little complicated and people didn't quite understand the legal ramifications we can do better.

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I think that, um, I agree with REG and I think that we also need to be thinking about what kinds of progressive models we can put into place I think even in the open access space where I spent a lot of time we.

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There's been kind of this like one size fits all sort of approach to things I think as your different publishers look at what's what is an APC it's going to be one thing or even the term project for to support open access book publishing it's one kind

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of one fee of what we're going to do with that. And I think that that's an attempt to try to make things so that all institutions and organizations can participate but I think that the reality is pointing back to some of Courtney's comments earlier today

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some of our institutions have more resources and can subsidize some of these things to a greater extent than other organizations and they think that, you know, knowledge on launched had, I think some success with this on the the publishing front and I

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think that we need to spend more time looking at those kinds of models for what investment looks like and I know when I'm sitting down thinking about if I want to put more funds into more subscriptions that can appear Swank versus a program that might

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be at POV where I could be supporting the creation of more independent content and diverse voices. I'm going to try everything I can to put my money towards that POV project.

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So I think that there's more of these kinds of conversations happening or institutions than ever before. I'm a little bit less optimistic than Rick about checking a box being as natural as filling out a copyright registration for most filmmakers.

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And that's why I'm kind of I'm enthusiastic about the idea of what a model license might look like because if we could give them, you know everything out of the box I think that that could be a really useful tool for a lot of independent artists is they're

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trying to think about what they do. And there was a comment in the chat about NF tease and I think that that's an interesting space but I don't know that we need to go that far, and add another layer of administration into this conversation.

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I think that, ultimately, the it's going to be a bigger shift and the economies and markets of creating of creating and producing creative work that's going to, it's going to happen it's going to be much bigger than just NFC and blockchain.

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So this is my personal opinion, I'm sure that there's other kinds of things. Somebody asked me to define and ft is non fungible tokens. So it's a way to purchase digital photos arts other kinds of digital content, or really it's a contract and really

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just to say that you own it, you don't really actually get to control it or lock Adele or anybody else. It is interesting how the NF T's are encouraging artists to say like, Oh, well I can, part of this contract can determine like who gets a percentage

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of the resale cost or things like that and so maybe, Maybe I I'm not endorsing using NFC for this but thinking about contracts and thinking about them.

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In, maybe innovative ways is something that's happening in the wake of or becomes more possible in the wake of NFT at it, that something could be freely available to libraries while still retaining rights and other ways or, or even programming in a way

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that one gets paid automatically.

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And the idea that.

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The other interesting piece about NFC is is that ownership does it changes the idea of what ownership is for people right to say that you own an NFC Does it mean that you have a complete lock on every digital copy of that, I mean we all know that that's

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not realistic so I think that that's a really great point that that could be a way for us to crack open that conversation and get folks to be rethinking things outside of these long traditions of certain kinds of contracts that we've been working with

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him for a long time.

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I mean I'm remembering my new those cereal boxes had those offers where you would get a square inch of land on the moon and and a lot of ways that you know that that reminds me a bit of event ft, but I'm also NF keys are way of creating digital scarcity.

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When what we want to do as educators and as librarians is bring about digital abundance abundance of of knowledge. There was a comment a question from a Lorraine and the in the q amp a about the difficulty of getting rights from films, especially from

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South America and Africa and I think this is really an opportunity if we think about easing terms of licensing and making them a little more inclusive, it's a it's a route towards global media justice of a sort, making sure that it's easier to see these

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works, my colleagues who teach Chicano cinema.

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It's very very difficult to obtain not just rights but even materials on on important films from Mexico and the Borderlands and so some sort I hope that discussions would lead towards a system that ultimately began to engulf much more material and make

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it more available so that we can have more diverse curricula.

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At the risk of running over. Just one. One last question that might be a little bit self serving, to really to a lot of the really excellent resources that people brought up in the chat.

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The video roundtable for a la for example, other kinds of communities of practice around media resources and libraries, and again at the risk of sounding a little self serving.

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We, you know what, what role do you feel the coalition's play in this work. So, for example, somebody made a comment in the chat that they have as a library negotiated individual contracts with some filmmakers but it's very time consuming.

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Again, a couple people pointed to the difficulties of host of hosting your own and you know, one of the reasons why people choose streaming is convenience, is they get just a big chunk of stuff and they don't have to necessarily purchase it one on one,

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so I'm wondering from your perspective, you know what, who would have joined up approaches really provide somebody a couple of people have commented universe Colorado for example and and other people commented that they that they work in consortia.

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So what, what role would uh you know like basically how can we do this together. And if this is something that we value is, is greater global media equity which I love, as a concept, you know, where would you all see next steps.

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I would love to know what other universities are doing and I'm seeing that in the chat, but I want to even in my own informal kind of pulling of colleagues I haven't different institutions, there's some reluctance sometimes to talk exactly about what

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their universities doing either because it's such a piecemeal approach, or because a lot of instructors are doing things that wouldn't be officially endorsed in any way.

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And so, kind of, I see you know first step there to be to be in understanding what other universities are doing and where there might be an advantage to joining up together and figuring out the kinds of solutions and arrangements and contracts that universities

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have negotiated because I've have found a lot of kind of smoke around discussions of what actually other universities are doing.

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And so, that first step I feel like would be really important for me because we had a hard time finding it out here.

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Other Kathleen thoughts about that perhaps.

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I think if we can have some, some shared ground rules around what is going to be advantageous and work for content creators and what's going to work for our institutions, then we can think about what that scale up process looks like.

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I could see a service in the future where, you know, maybe a consortium of libraries, has a hosting platform, and, you know, the way that the authentication works is the contents available to whichever libraries have paid into accessing that content.

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So I think that those kinds of models will come but I think we need to find a way to be able to get the content first and our organizations, before we can start building momentum around infrastructure then for broader access.

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One thing we may be able to do is build on freely licensed content, which already exists in the open education space, and the Creative Commons space and work that people voluntarily upload to the Internet Archive, there's a lot there, but it's there aren't

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a lot of good tools to it's not very discoverable.

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Do you want the the final.

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I'm just thinking of this again like from a different kind of space but thinking again that it's just us right here who are talking and then we have this chat and it seems like

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an interesting like kind of stepping back first step would be to like right register complaint, like a collective space, sincerely to say like, and here's the problem I'm experiencing and here's before we say like here's what my institution is doing because

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I for one when I'm at a university and I'm when I, you know, I, yeah. When I'm at a university I don't really want to follow the lead of the institution institution is already going to be doing some incredibly problematic stuff so it would be an interest

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it's an interesting thought that's what I was thinking like to have a collective space where educators and students are registering complaint around access and then that kind of complaint can be synthesized and the problem itself can be known more intimately

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are the problems themselves can be no more intimately before solution.

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Based Thinking models stuff happen.

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Maybe a bad idea but could be fun.

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That is an excellent way to wrap up because that is in many ways what why we are kicking this off is library features and starting to build communities of practice around these questions, you are interested in that work please get in touch, I'll put our

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email address in the chat. You can tweet at us you can Facebook message us many ways to get in touch with us. I want to register an incredibly huge thank you to all of our panelists to Rick for agreeing to moderate for to Chris to Courtney, and to Kathleen

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I really really appreciate it, as I'm sure to all of the participants, and thank you also to the participants again for a robust discussion.

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I learned a lot from the chat and from the panelists, and I really look forward to continuing this conversation. As part of library futures. If you've made it this far, you get to hear about our next two events which will be next week, so I don't have

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the link yet but it will be going out over email, social media, and

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even social media, essentially, And that is an event on January, 18, at 1pm, which is on library privacy past, present and future with Allison Kareena from the library Freedom Project, Sarah Lampton from CUNY and spark and George Christian from library

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connection, who also was one of the Connecticut for the group of lay brands who stood up to the FBI against surveillance of their patrons back in 2000, I think 2000, or 2003.

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And we're really excited about that we might have a another moderator who will be announcing soon. And that's really exciting and then our second event that's coming up next week, big week is public domain day, which will be hosting, in cooperation with

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lots of organizations and people including Kathleen and Johns Hopkins, and I will put that link in the chat if you want to register and party like it's 1926 will be celebrating also the first the first time that a significant number of music recordings

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are going into the public domain pre 19 3023 music recordings are now public domain it's really exciting. And we have some folks in the Library of Congress who are going to be giving a little talk really going to be a great day.